Sunday, June 5, 2011

Historical Veracity of the Bible

For comparison:

There are about 5300 known Greek manuscripts of the New Testament plus over 10,000 Latin Vulgate and at least 9300 other early versions AND 24,000 manuscript copies of portions of the New Testament in existance

The closest document of antiquity to even approach that in such numbers is Homer's Iliad of which there are only 643 in existance. The first complete preserved text of Homer is only from the 13th century

Lets go into the others shall we, since you pointed out that there is considerable time between Jesus' life and the first written found document about Jesus

Ceasar's earliest works was written between 100-44BC of which the earliest copy in existance is from 900AD. Thats a 1000 year gap. Only 10 copies exist. Did Ceasar really exist?

Plato's works were written between 427-347BC of which the earliest copies in existance is from 900AD, a gap of 1200 years. Only 7 copies in existance. Did Plato exist?

Aristotle's works were written between 384-322BC, and the earliest copies are from 1100AD. Thats a gap of 1200 years, only 10 copies in existance remaining. Did Aristotle exist?

In comparison, most of the New Testament were written in the latter part of the 1st Century, the earliest manuscripts (excluding scraps) are from the 4th Century. Only a 250-300 year gap.

So again, if Jesus's existance is in doubt, all of these, from Ceasar to Plato to Aristotle have even worse proof of their existance

The existence of Socrates is even worse, as the only proof of his existence is Plato's writings

I AM

At the burning bush, Moses asked God for his name, which God answered

Exodus 3:14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

"I Am the I Am" is Ehyeh asher ehyeh which means that God has existed before creation and will exist forever.

Ehyeh asher ehyeh or I Am the I Am is where YHWH is derived from, and is translated to Jehovah in English.

In the New Testament in Greek, this is written:

Rev 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, the BEING (ho on), and THE WAS (ho en), and THE IS TO COME (ho erchomenos), the Almighty (ho pantokrator)."

Rev 4:8 "holy, Lord God Almighty, the WAS (ho en), and the BEING (ho on), and the IS TO COME (ho erchomenos)."

Which brings me to the point of this post:

In
John 8:58, Jesus said “Truly, Truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am”

Another Jesus = God verse

Want to see something interesting?

John 18:4-8 "Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way"

When the soldiers asked for Jesus, Jesus' answer in Greek was not "I am he" but "I AM" (some versions also translated as I am, not I am he)

That is why they fell down when Jesus answered.

Conclusion?

Jesus = I AM = Johovah = God

The Trinity

1) Nowhere in the Scriptures is God referred to or called a “Trinity

Again, I have conceded the term Trinity has never been used. But if you study your Bible, and compile together all the references of the Father as God, Jesus as God, the Holy Spirit as God, you will come up with the concept of the Trinity

After compiling your Bible study, you do not have to refer to your concept of God, but you will have to admit, there are plenty of verses as I will cover as I answer your questions below

2) The number “three” is never used in reference to Who or What God is

Several times in the Bible, God referred himself in plural, Why is that? Elohim itself is a plural name for God

Gen. 1:26: " And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

Gen. 3:22:" And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us,"

Gen.11:7: ..." let us go down, and there confound their language,"'

Who is the others? It cannot be angels, since Angels were created too. Is there a specific number? Even disregarding the New Testament verses stating specifically "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" there is plenty of evidence of "three"

Isaiah 48:16 "from the beginning from the time that it was, I was there:( 1st person) and now the Lord GOD (2nd person) and his Spirit, (3rd person) hath sent me(1st person)."

John 1:1 is similar "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Speaking of Creation, can we agree that God created the heavens and the Earth?

But then, the Holy Spirit played a big role in Creation too (see below on the Holy Spirit)

Oh wait! Jesus is the creator too!
John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Hebrews 1:2 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds"

Colossians 1:16"16: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him"

Surely by now you can see, scripturally, you may not agree on "three", but you would have to concede there is more than one or two creators scripturally. Perhaps if you can show me a fourth character or a fifth character? Then maybe I will agree its not "three"

Surely being the Creator is a definitive sign of being God, right?

3) God is never called or referred to as a “person”

To be honest, I don't know what you definition of a "person" is.

The fact that the God of the Bible is not a impersonal force of the universe, rather having attributes such as self awareness, having relationships, plans and goals, that he LOVES us enough to sacrifice his Son (himself in mortal form) does imply that God has the attributes to be described if human as a person.

Perhaps you can put down a criteria of personhood besides "not being God", and I will try to answer this

4) The Holy Spirit is never called “God”

I) Jesus and the Bible called himself the Son of God, but Mary was in fact inpregnated by the Holy Spirit

Matthew 1:18 "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."

Luke 1:34-35 "Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

If the Holy Spirit isn't God, Jesus should be called the Son of the Holy Spirit, not the Son of God, don't you agree?

II) The Holy Spirit was the one that gave life and took part in Creation

a) During Creation
"And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters" (Genesis 1:2).
The root meaning of the word used for Spirit here is "wind" or "breath". God's Spirit is compared to the wind blowing across the waters. The Spirit of God was present in an active way.

b) All creatures received life from the Holy Spirit
"You hide Your face, they are troubled; You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust. You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the earth" (Psalm 104:29,30).

c) Man's spirit and life came from and depend on the Holy Spirit
"Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him" (Zechariah 12:1).

"Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

"The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life" (Job 33:4).

"If He should set His heart on it, if He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath, all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust" (Job 34:14,15).

There's more like Ezekiel 37, but you get the idea. Its the Holy Spirit that gave life. So if the Holy Spirit isn't God, does that mean God didn't give life?

III) Lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God


Acts 5:-3-4 "“Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit? . . . You have not lied to men; but to God.”

IV) Scripture is God inspired, moved by the Holy Spirit


2 Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”;

2 Peter 1:21 “For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”

5) Since Christ is the Son, He cannot also be the Father or be coequal with his Father, Christ plainly said:

“My Father is GREATER than I” (John 14:28)

Regarding your verse John 14:28. Of course that WAS correct. If Jesus really is God who came down in the flesh without all his Godly powers, surely God without Godly powers is lesser than God WITH all his powers? Nothing to dispute there

How about who Jesus was before and after his life on Earth 2000 years ago?

As above I have already covered Jesus being the Creator, as God and the Holy Spirit were also the Creator.

Near the end,
Revelations 5:13-14 shows all of Creation worshipping Jesus as God


"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever."

So is Jesus co-equal with his Father? He is co-creator, and ALL creation bows down before him in the end.

Mary (mother of Jesus) of the Bible

1) Was Mary the Eternal Virgin?

I had a discussion with several Catholics on an online forum, debating about the eternal virginity of Mary. Was Mary a virgin after giving birth to Jesus? Or did Mary have normal sexual relations with Joseph as normal married couple do after marriage?

Well it is clear that Jesus had siblings. When Jesus preached in his home town, he was rejected, and the people there said:

Mt:13:55 “Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas”

Mk:6:3 “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.”

Apparently, this is a common argument pointed at the Catholic church, and they have readily used alternative theories, namely:

1) Joseph had an earlier marriage, and these are siblings from that earlier marriage

2) It is common for close friends to call each other brothers and sisters, when they are not really related

They even have it written down by prominent Catholic priests in history and made this cannon in the Catholic Church doctrine. Either way, their theory is that Mary remained a virgin and had no further children after Jesus

But the Scripture is not something for us to take lightly, and manipulate and distort to our tastes and biases. Fortunately, God in his infinite wisdom leaves us a clear answer

At the Cross

When Jesus was crucified on the cross, here are the people who were there

Mt:27:56 "Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children."

Mk:15:40 "There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome"

Jn:19:25-27 "Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home."

Although there was a throng of people there to witness the crucifixion, there were several people there that was important for the writers of the gospels to mention

Thus to summarise, those who were in attendance were:

1. Mary Magdalene (Matthew, Mark & John)

2. Mary the mother of James and Joses (Matthew and Mark)

3. Mother of Zebedee's sons (Matthew)

4. Salome (Mark) although it could also be read that Mary was the mother of James, Joses & Salome, excluding her from being in attendance. Salome is also mentioned in Mark 16:1, but again could be read as a separate person, or as a daughter of Mary. Some scholars think that she might also be the mother of Zebedee's sons, but this is inconclusive.

5. Mary mother of Jesus (John)

6. Mary wife of Clophas (John)

7. Un-named sister of Jesus' mother (John), but could also be read to be (6) Mary wife of Clophas

8. Un-named Beloved Disciple (John) who many believe to be John himself, as he frequently referred himself as the disciple Jesus loved.

Now, cross reference that with the earlier verses of when Jesus preached in his home town, and the people there's reference to Jesus

We clearly see that:

1. Mary, mother of Jesus was at the cross (John)

2. Mary mother of James and Joses was at the cross (James & Joses)

3. Jesus was known as the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses.

It is quite clear based on the evidence in the Scripture, and taking no non scriptural evidence that a conclusion can confidently be made that Mary the mother of Jesus was also the mother of James and Joses, and quite a number of other children.

In fact, this is the most sound conclusion to base your doctrine on, since it can all be proven in the scriptures, rather than rely on personal convictions of priests and preachers who were not there and were written centuries later.

2) Was Mary Blessed Above Other Women?

Well based on my own personal opinion, Mary was indeed blessed to be able to carry the Messiah. However, to call her blessed above other women, and making it into a title of some veneration, it is best one look into the scriptures to see if this is scripturally sound.

In the scriptures, Mary is considered blessed among women, not above.

Lk 1:28 "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

Lk 1:42 "And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb."

The bible says she was blessed among women, as she was selected by grace to carry Jesus, so that he would be in the line of David, as prophesied in the scripture.

Only one woman was ”blessed above women”, and only a particular tent, is found in the book of Judges

Judges 5:24 "Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent."

Speaking of Mary being blessed, after casting out a demon, someone tried to bless the woman who gave birth to Jesus. But Jesus rejected this blessing towards Mary

Lk 11:27-28 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

3) Mary "Mother of Jesus" ?

The Catholics have referred Mary as the “Mother of God”. This is simply wrong and is in nowhere mentioned in the Scriptures.

In fact, even the mention of the phrase “mother of Jesus” is never used in all first 3 gospels.

Mt 27:56 “Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.”

Mk 15:40 ”There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;”

Mk 15:47 “And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid”

Mk 16:1 “And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.”

Lk 24:10 “It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles”

It is only in the book of John, that Mary is mentioned as the “mother of Jesus” or similar phrases.

Jn 2:1 “And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there”

Jn 2:3 “And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine…”

Jn 19:25 “Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister,Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.”

Acts 1:14 “These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Interestingly, in the book of Acts, Mary is later referred to as the mother of John!

Acts 12:12 “And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying.”

Why mother of John?

Jn 19:26-27 “When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.”

4) How Did Jesus treat Mary?

Did Mary have a more powerful sway over Jesus, like most mothers do over their children? This is the general argument explicitly or implicitly stated when discussing about Mary.

Mt 12:47-50 “Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mk 3:32-35 “And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Lk 8:20-21 “And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee. And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.”

Jn 2:3-4 “And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. Jesus saith unto her,Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come”

Jn 19:26-27 “When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.”

It doesn’t look like Jesus ever referred to her as his Mother during his ministry, or adult life.

5) Did Mary have any special knowledge of God’s plans, or able to influence Jesus in them?

Clearly she did not. Not even when Jesus was 12 years old.

Lk 2:48-52 “And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.”

Mary was a wonderful woman, blessed by God. However, she was only human, and had no knowledge of Gods plans, nor any influence on it. Not even when Jesus was a child.

6) Who Intercedes For Us?

There are many Catholics who claim that they do not “worship” Mary. They claim that they are only asking Mary (or a “saint”) to intercede or pray on their behalf.

Although this is a nice clever argument, but the scripture is very clear. There is only ONE person who intercedes for us. Jesus.

Rom 8:26-27 “Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”

Rom 8:34 “Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.”

Heb 7:25 “Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Thus you pray to Jesus, who is interceding for us, not Mary, not any saint, not angels not even a priest.

Yes, in the Old Testament, the people pray to God through a priest. However, in the New Testament on, we pray through our High Priest: Jesus!

Heb 3:1 “Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;”

Heb 2:17 “Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people”.

Heb 4:14-15 “Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.”

Heb:5:1 “ For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins”

Heb:5:5-6 “ So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Heb 5:10 “ Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.”

Heb 6:20 “Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.”

Heb 7:22-28 “By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.”

Heb 8:1 “Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Heb 9:11 “But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building”

Heb 9:24-25 “For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us. Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

Heb 10:16-21 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God”

Rom 11:2 “God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,”

So since Jesus is our ONLY intercessor, if you pray to or through Mary, or some long dead saint, who are you praying to/through? Prayers to the dead are strictly forbidden in the scriptures

Deut 18:11-12 “Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. or all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.”

Conclusion

Mary indeed was blessed to bear Jesus into the world. She rightly has her place in Christian history and in the bible

However, it is wrong to venerate her beyond what is clearly written in the scriptures. And it is even more erroneous when she takes the place of Jesus, be it as a being more powerful than God (mother of God) or as an intercessor (Jesus is the only intercessor).

ANYONE who takes the place of Jesus, be it Mary, some “saint”, or even the easter bunny or Santa Claus is clearly Anti-Christ.

This is not a criticism of merely the Catholics, but other denominations too. There are many who nearly worships their pastor/leader of the church, and overly places the word of their teacher/writer of their Christian teachings ABOVE what is clearly stated in the Bible.

I have heard many messages about materialism, money, vices etc being above Christ is sin. I do not disagree with these teachings.

However, more importantly in the church itself, there are more insidious teachings that places other things above Jesus. They are more dangerous, because they do not seem outwardly sinful and do not fit easily with other easy to pigeonhole sins such as habitual sins and materialism, fitting in very nicely with playing church

Teachings that are placed above Jesus such as:

1) emphasizing your works/service/missions above the work Jesus has done

2) overly placing emphasis on your pastor/preacher/priest’s teachings over the Word of God

3) overly placing emphasis on your cell groups/church service/training over a personal relationship with God

The surest way you will know that you are being led astray is when the emphasis of your church is not Jesus, or when something or someone replaces Jesus in any capacity

Baptism of the Holy Spirit

These are some of my old notes from many years ago, when I was asked to respond to a pamphlet regarding Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I hope these notes will be useful to you if you are reading this. I will try to remember why and what was the discussion about, as my notes are in question and answer form, and I have long lost the original pamphlet that I was responding to. I have left in the numbers and the questions from the original pamphlet, but the answers are mine, although I do reference verses from the original pamphlet and respond to them.

1&2) Does one receive the Holy Spirit at conversion or at Baptism?

Ephesians 1: 13-14 states In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14: Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

As the Scripture has written, so then must we believe. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we received our salvation.

In the pamphlet, it's answer quoted Acts 19:1-6 as proof that we receive the Holy Spirit only after baptism. This is in fact in error. Let us examine what the Scriptures say in context and compare with other Scriptures to get a clear picture.

Acts 19:1-6 states "And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

The confusion here is easily clarified once you know that these disciples are the disciples of John the Baptist, not John the disciple of Jesus. It is only after Paul preached to them and they got saved that they received the Holy Spirit!

Lets compare what John the Baptist preached

Mat 3: 1-3 "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight."

John the Baptist preached what the Old Testament prophets preached, that you should repent, get right with God. This is also what many churches are still preaching even today.

In Luke 7:20 there were disciples of John who asked Jesus if he was the one John was preaching about. Jesus answered yes. But as above, in Acts 19:4, Paul had to tell these particular disciples of John that the one they are waiting for is Jesus. They never knew before this hence they have never accepted Jesus Christ.

Many Christians are confused between receiving the Holy Spirit, and Baptism of the Holy Spirit. We receive the Holy Spirit when we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. We get Baptised in the Holy Spirit when we, through faith allow the Holy Spirit to activate in us. This is evidenced by speaking in tongues and followed by other Gifts of the Spirit.

Thus, we receive the Holy Spirit at conversion. We get Baptised in the Holy Spirit after one receives Jesus Christ as his/her Lord and Savior. Then, with the Holy Spirit sealed in them, and being a new creation, one can be Baptised the Holy Spirit. This can happen before or after water baptism.

3) Should one take Water Baptism even after receiving the Holy Spirit?

Yes. Baptism is a practice whereby one publicly identifies with Christ in death, burial and resurrection. However, being baptized is not a prerequisite for salvation

4) Is speaking in tongues the only sign for receiving the Holy Spirit?

More accurately, speaking in tongues is the surest sign of undergoing Baptism of the Holy Spirit. In the early churches, tongues was used to differentiate real believers and spies of the authorities who persecute them.

More to the point, the question is asking if there is a sign to tell if someone is saved? No, not by man.

Romans 10:6-11 " …Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

These verses simply state that it is not up to us to determine who is saved and who is not. We simply sow the seed, it is the ground that determines whether anything grows or not. But God is faithful if the ground receives the seed, and that person will be saved. But it is between that person and God, not us.

15) Can a person be in Christ without Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

22) Is Spirit Baptism necessary to become a member of the body of Christ?

Referring to the above argument, we receive the Holy Spirit when we accept Jesus Christ. Thus we are in Christ, and are a member of the body of Christ.

However, without Baptism of the Holy Spirit, we are not effective as Christians, nor as members of the Body of Christ. This is because without the Holy Spirit working supernaturally in us, we will only have our own natural resources and will eventually burn out.

If we note in 1 Cor 12:27-31 many of the functions of the Body of Christ requires being Baptised in the Holy Spirit.

20A) Is it necessary to receive the Holy Spirit if we are to be cought up at he coming of the Lord?

Since I clarified my stance, and differ from the pamphlet on when we "receive" the Holy Spirit, we will presume that the question is asking if it is necessary to be Baptised in the Holy Spirit to be caught up in the coming of the Lord

Here is the verse on us being "cought up" with our Lord

1 Thes 4: 16-18 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first, Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

This verses refer to the rapture. To clarify who will be caught up, in the next chapter, the Bible states"

1 Thes 5: 9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"

Thus, if you are saved, even if you have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, you are not appointed to wrath!

20B) Our Sanctification
I believe in the original pamphlet, part of the answer was that the Holy Spirit sanctifies us, but went further to state that if we do not have the Holy Spirit (presumably because the writer of the pamphlet believes that the Holy Spirit only comes after Baptism), we are not sanctified yet until we get Baptised in the Holy Spirit

Firstly I do agree that the Holy Spirit sanctifies us

1Cor:6:11: And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

But what is the basis of our sanctification?

Heb 10: 9-14 "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

It is Jesus’ sacrifice and our acceptance of that sacrifice in our place that makes us sanctified! Not Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Then, and only then, the Holy Spirit bears witness

Heb 10:15-18 "Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

24) Is not the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ the same?

I can't remember what this is about, however this was my response to the answer given in the pamphlet:

Yes, they are the same. The Spirit of God is the same also.

In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit came upon the prophets, and thus they prophesied and performed miracles. Now, the Holy Spirit dwells within us

Rom 8: 9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

This verse states that we are spirits, and that the Holy Spirit dwells in us. If we do not have the Holy Spirit, we are not of God, reemphasizing the fact that we receive the Holy Spirit on conversion. The next verse further reestablishes this

Rom 8: 10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

In reference to 1 Peter 1:11&12

1 Peter:1:11-12 “Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into”.

As explained earlier, in the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit rested upon the prophets, hence they could prophesy about Christ.

Verse 12 simply states that in God’s timing, through the Holy Spirit, the revelation of Christ is revealed to us. But at the time of prophesy, the prophets themselves did not understand what they were prophesying about nor did the angels.

NB: In verse 11, the KJV states that the Spirit of Christ which was “in” them, in the Old Testament, the Spirit of God always rested upon them, not in them. Also there is no reference to the Spirit of Christ in the Old Testament, only Spirit of God.

25) Can we not witness if we have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

If we look at Acts 1:8, we see that it IS about witnessing for him, and not about “revealing Christ through us”

Acts 1:8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

But what are we witnessing?

Luke 24:46-48 “ … Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”

Yes it is true that one of the words for witness is martus or martur which means a martyr ie one who bears witness by his death

But other words in the New Testament for witness are also marturia and, marturion which means to testify or to make a declaration of facts.

The usage of the first one martus or martur (martyr), is only used

a) of God

- Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

- 2 Cor 1: 23: Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.

- Phil 1: 8: For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.

- 2 Thes 2: 5: For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness:

b) of Christ

- Rev 1: 5: And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

c) of real martyrs

- Acts 22: 20: And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

- Rev 2: 13: I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

- Rev 17: 6: And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

d) of the 2 witnesses in the Revelations

- Rev 11: 3: And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

e) in a forensic sense (as evidence)

- Mat 18: 16: But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

- Mat 26: 65: Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

- there are many more where this is used including Mark 14:63, Acts 6:13, 7:58 etc but as you can see this usage is not what is meant by being a witness in this argument

The usage of marturia means to bring “testimony. a bearing witness” . Similar to the above, ie forensically the usages are for

- 1 John 5: 9: If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son

- .Titus 1: 13: This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

- there are several more incidences, but not quoted here by me due to time

The usage of marturion means “a declaration of facts”. This is the translation that we should use when we are told to witness.

- Mat 24: 14: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

- Acts 4: 33: And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

- Acts 7: 44: Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.

All these translations are taken from the Vines dictionary of Greek Note, none of these Greek words apply to “revealing of Christ through us”

Now the first usage of martyr is not what is meant by us being witnesses, because we are not asked in Acts 1:8 to die in the process of witnessing the gospel

The second usage is also not accurate as we were not there in person to see the gospel as it happened.

The third usage is the most accurate, as we are to declare the gospel to the world.

Conclusion

We should not confuse receiving the Holy Spirit with Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

We receive the Holy Spirit upon our salvation, while we receive the Gifts of the Spirit upon being Baptised by the Holy Spirit. The gifts of tongues and the other Gifts of the Spirit are the outwards manifestation of being Baptised by the Holy Spirit.

It is God’s will that all of us speak in tongues, cast out demons, heal the sick (Mark 16:17).

Some churches, through experiential teachings, reject tongues. These believers, if they have accepted Jesus Christ, have the Holy Spirit in them and are saved. But through the unbelieving teachings they are taught unbelief.

However on the opposite side, there are some churches who teach that you are only saved if you speak in tongues. This is wrong biblically as well. It also produces bondage

As long as you are saved, you will go to Heaven when you die or get raptured. However, Baptism of the Holy Spirit is important as it gives you God’s anointing to do his work and requires faith.

Heb:11:6: But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

That is why:

  • Churches that don’t believe in tongues, won’t have tongues in a large scale (only privately by members who believe)
  • Churches that don’t believe in healing, have no healing in that church
  • Churches that don’t believe in prosperity, the members suffer financially

Why? Because God responds to faith, not need, nor hard work, not how high up in the heirachy in the church you are, not even how much tongues you pray.

Jesus responded to faith with the following words

To the Centurion:

Mat 8:13: “… and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee…”

To the two blind men:

Mat 9:29 “… According to your faith be it unto you.”

To the Syrophenicean woman:

Mat 15:28 “…great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt…”